Re: How are columbiformes (doves and pigeons) related to psittaciformes?

["Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com>]

Mickey:

Could you please give me the full bibliographical references for

Mayr and Clarke (2003), Mayr (2002), Mayr et al (2003), and Livezey and Zusi
(2001).

I am sure I have an article of Mayr's - but I think it just discusses basal
parrots.

----------------------------------

Close relationships to owls or wood peckers seems to be what I am finding
most often in the articles I haVe gotten ahold of so far.

------------------------

I was seriously wondering whether anything more than an odd shaped beak
supports Feduccia's assertion that parrots are actually descended from
pigeons+ADs- the tooth billed pigeon to be precise.    He doesn't explain the
notion in either of his two books on bird evolution.    If anything about
wing anatomy or something was there, I didn't see it.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra+AEA-austin.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: +ACI-Mickey Mortimer+ACI- +ADw-Mickey+AF8-Mortimer111+AEA-msn.com+AD4-
To: +ADw-dinosaur+AEA-usc.edu+AD4-
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: How are columbiformes (doves and pigeons) related to
psittaciformes?


+AD4- Dora Smith wrote-
+AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- I have come across several tables of bird phylogeny that state that
+AD4- +AD4- psittaciformes (parrots) and columbiformes (doves and pigeons) are
closely
+AD4- +AD4- related - and placed in various diverse locations in the 
phylogenetic
+AD4- +AD4- scheme.
+AD4-
+AD4- Not believed to be true anymore.  Mayr and Clarke (2003) found
+AD4- psittaciformes to be closest to coliids, then coraciids.  Columbids were
+AD4- most closely related to pteroclids.  Mayr (2002) noted similarities
between
+AD4- basal parrots (pseudasturids) and strigiformes.  Mayr et al. (2003) found
+AD4- psittaciformes to be closely related to a Coliidae +- Piciformes clade.
+AD4- Columbiformes were not included in their analysis.  Livezey and Zusi
(2001)
+AD4- found psittaciformes to be closest to some coraciiformes, while columbids
+AD4- were next to pteroclids.
+AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- Explanations of this idea are so vague they do not even tell me if 
the
+AD4- +AD4- evidence is genetic or morphological.
+AD4- +AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- What can anyone tell me about what reason there is to believe
+AD4- psittaciformes
+AD4- +AD4- and columbiformes are closely related, and can anyone suggest some 
good
+AD4- +AD4- sources on that subject.
+AD4-
+AD4- Mayr (2002) wrote- +ACI-Whereas some authors considered a close 
relationship
+AD4- between Psittaciformes and either Cuculiformes (e.g. Gadow, 1893) or
+AD4- Columbiformes (pigeons and doves) (e.g. Mayr +ACY- Amadon, 1951+ADs- 
Feduccia,
+AD4- 1996), more recent studies resulted in sister
+AD4- group relationship between the Psittaciformes and a cluster of several
+AD4- recent taxa (e.g. Sibley +ACY- Ahlquist,1990+ADs- Livezey +ACY- Zusi, 
2001 +IBM- the
former
+AD4- reference also gives a survey on the history of the classification of
+AD4- psittaciform birds).
+AD4- The Pseudasturidae are distinguished from other psittaciform birds in the
+AD4- morphology of several skeletal elements and it may be assumed that the
+AD4- Eocene taxon lacks many of the highly derived features, which obscure the
+AD4- relationships of extant Psittaciformes.  Almost certainly, for example,
the
+AD4- derived similarities between the humerus of extant parrots and pigeons
(e.g.
+AD4- Stegmann, 1964) are due to convergence, as both the Pseudasturidae and the
+AD4- Eocene psittaciform birds described by Mayr +ACY- Daniels (1998) exhibit a
+AD4- different, presumably more primitive, humeral morphology.
+AD4- Of course, the remotely parrot-like beak of the toothbilled pigeon,
+AD4- Didunculus strigirostris, also does not support a close relationship
between
+AD4- Psittaciformes and Columbiformes as assumed by Feduccia (1980), because
+AD4- other pigeons as well as the Pseudasturidae and other basal psittaciform
+AD4- birds (see Mayr +ACY- Daniels, 1998) lack a parrot-like beak.+ACI-
+AD4-
+AD4- Mickey Mortimer