Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"

["Michael Schmidt" <dmschmidt@sprint.ca>]

nope......not a former member.  Tell me what I said that contravened any
rules of this list?  On the contrary....I think I raised some very valid
points, yet you seem to want to ignore them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Green" <dinonaut@emerytelcom.net>
To: "dinosaur mailing list" <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"


> Dear List,
>
>     At this point, I am concluding that Micheal Schmidt is a former list
> member, but hopefully he sees this post.
>     You are claiming that Mary Kirkaldy is being clouded by emotion, in
her
> stance against commercial fossil collecting, but then you go into a multi
> paragraph tome with wild accusations and innuendos. The academia has done
> thier homework on the damage of commercial collecting.
>     I live right on top of one of the richest vertebrate fossil areas in
the
> world. I can tell you dozens of stories about self proclaimed
"Professional
> " commercial people stealing our dig sites blind.Even the ones digging up
> fossils legally will throw priceless fossils over the sides of thier sites
> in order to get to the claws, premaxillas and other trinkets.
>     It has been my experience, especially after attending The Tucson
Fossil
> Show, this past February, that the number of commercial people who care
more
> about the scientific value of the fossils that they sell, over the
almighty
> dollar, can be numbered on one hand, ... minus a few fingers.
>
> Cliff Green
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Schmidt" <dmschmidt@sprint.ca>
> To: <MKIRKALDY@aol.com>
> Cc: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"
>
>
> just the academics I sell fossil materials to on a fairly regular
> basis........legally, and without complaints from them, I may add.
>
> As both you and I say, you have your opinion, and I have mine.  It's just
> too bad you let emotion cloud your viewpoint into making you believe that
> all fossil dealers are unlawful.  Until such a law is passed, making it
> illegal to deal in fossil materials, your comments are nothing but biased
> and ignorant.  Your SVP ethics statement is NOT LAW, regardless of how
much
> you would like it to be.
>
> Strange how you guys always fall back on that statement, yet when any
sales
> fall within the criteria listed within the statement
>
> "The barter, sale, or purchase of scientifically significant vertebrate
> fossils is not condoned unless it brings them into, or keeps them within,
a
> public trust. Any other trade or commerce in scientifically significant
> vertebrate fossils is inconsistent with the foregoing, in that it deprives
> both the public and professionals of important specimens, which are part
of
> our natural heritage. "
>
> you still complain that people like me shouldn't be able to sell
specimens.
>
> Am I the scum of the earth for just selling the local university a very
> large and complete vertebrate specimen?  Some of you would think so, yet
> according to the statement above, I have done nothing wrong.  Correct?  I
> sold the specimen, which was professionally collected and partially
prepared
> (again, professionally), along with all the scientific data required.  I
> made a little money, and the university got a world class specimen for a
> small percentage of what it would have cost them to go collect the
specimen
> themselves.  Tell me what I have done that is unethical?  Nothing, as far
as
> I can see....especially considering I could have made MORE money selling
it
> privately.
>
> Let's see what your statement says.......
>
> "to discover, conserve, and protect vertebrate fossils and to foster the
> scientific, educational, and personal appreciation and understanding of
them
> by amateur, student and professional paleontologists, as well as the
general
> public."
>
> That's interesting.........notice how it says the general public, and
> amateur paleontologists?
>
> It is the responsibility of vertebrate paleontologists to assist
government
> agencies in the development of management policies and regulations
pertinent
> to the collection of vertebrate fossils, and to comply with those policies
> and regulations during and after collection. Necessary permits on all
lands
> administered by federal, state, and local governments, whether domestic or
> foreign, must be obtained from the appropriate agency(ies) before fossil
> vertebrates are collected. Collecting fossils on private lands must only
be
> done with the landowner's consent.
>
> I have more than 1 story that has been told to me by involved parties of
> academics tresspassing on private land, and of bullying landowners into
> believing they had no right to stop any academic from coming onto their
> property and collecting whatever they wanted in the name of science.  In
> some cases when reported to the authorities, the allegations were
dismissed
> as a "misunderstanding"....funny, when a commercial collector is caught
> accidentally collecting literally 10 feet inside BLM land, when it is an
> honest mistake of a law abiding collector with absolutely no problems with
> the law.....he is fined $10,000 by the Federal government.  As well, when
> specimens that are in collections in local museums and universities- part
of
> a public trust, correct??- are thrown out because there is little room to
> store a lot of it anymore, where is the enforcement or adherence to your
> statement then?
>
> While some museums are good about it, other museums do not let
non-academics
> view specimens in their collections.  Why is this?  According to the
> staement above, these specimens should be available to the interested
> public...if they are in public institutions paid for by tax dollars,
> correct?  yet, in many cases, they are not allowed this access.  I think
it
> is very interesting the way academics cling to this statement when it
serves
> their purposes, yet quite a few of them find it difficult to adhere to it.
> Much like everything else in life (laws, religion, agreements, whatever)
> they pick it apart and select what parts will serve them the best.  If
other
> aspects hinder them in some way, they just kind of ignore them....and
later
> on claim it was just a misunderstanding.  Not all academics do this...the
> majority are fair, honest people.  it is just a small few judging by what
I
> have seen...just like the majority of fossil dealers don't run around
> raiding dig sites and selling off complete allosaurs......Why is it an
> industry gets condemned by the actions of a precious few, but the
scientific
> community seems to be (in some cases) above the law?
>
>
>
> I do not disagree with the majority of what this statement says.  What I
> disagree with is:
>
> 1.  Why it singles out vertebrates specimens.  Yes, yes, I know...it's the
> SVP, but I think if you are going to have a charter, or law, etc., then
have
> one that protects ALL fossils.  You will NEVER be able to convince me that
> an isolated Albertosaurus tooth found while surface collecting is far more
> scientifically important and worthy of protection than a complete
> anomalocaris specimen.
>
> 2.  Some vertebrate specimens are available in HUGE quantities, and it
would
> certainly not harm science to have a good number of these specimens
> commercially available.  I read somewhere that the 3 most common fish
> present in the Green River Formation may be present there in numbers
> exceeding the billions.......Please tell me how a guy with a quarry in
Utah
> selling knightias and diplomystuses is taking anything away from
science????
> Again, see your statement......"scientifically significant vertebrate
> fossils".  You tell me how a single common Knightia oceana is any more
> significant than 100,000 others?  Who decides whether it is or not?  Some
> biased academic, such as yourself?
>
> I will be the first one to applaud any country's efforts to protect fossil
> resources and to rally for protection of important specimens.  I live in
> Canada, and unlike your country, I must get permission from the Canadian
> government to export any fossil material, via granting of a permit.
> Possession doesn't mean squat if you want to export it.  This gives the
> government an opportunity to acquire the specimen for national or
Provincial
> collections.  Citizens in your country can go out in their back yard, dig
up
> a T-rex, and sell it to the highest bidder........that seems a little
> twisted to me.  Unfortunately, you live in a society where private
property
> laws are paramount.  Try to confiscate something like that from the
> legitimate owners, and you'll become aware of another of your enshrined
> rights....the right to bear arms.
>
> I deal with a lot of academics who live in the 21st century, and who
believe
> that a balance can be struck between RESPONSIBLE commercial collecting,
and
> legitimate scientific research.  My professor here travels to Morocco
every
> year to purchase trilobite specimens from a commercial dealer.  They are
> collected and prepared there, and he either travels out there to pick them
> up and do the field work he needs to do, or the specimens are (rarely)
> delivered to him.  He is one of the top people in his field....but then
> again, trilobites that are known by only a handful of specimens are not
> worthy of the same protection and consideration afforded a broken
> Carcharadontosaurus tooth, are they?
>
> I could live my entire life LEGALLY collecting vertebrate fossils and
> selling everything last thing I ever collected to academic institutions,
and
> people like yourself would still twist your SVP statement into whatever
you
> needed it to say in order to have contempt for me.  I have seen a lot of
> examples of fossil material being sold privately that should have gone to
> museums, but I have also seen many examples of carelessness and
recklessness
> by so-called academics and professionals.  The difference is, the
academics
> seem to be above the law.......strange, isn't it?  Two sets of laws for 2
> different groups.......
>
> Be honest..........you LOATHE fossil dealers whether they conform to your
> statement or not.  Responsible or legal collecting will never be the issue
> with you.........only collecting for profit.
>
> It's nice to meet others in your field who do not share your beliefs.  I
> also truly hope that zero tolerance attitude disappears in the years to
> come.
>
> Good luck with your proposed Draconian laws.....maybe the money your
> government collects in fines once it's imposed can be used to re-open some
> of your museums that have recently closed down.......
>
> Michael
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MKIRKALDY@aol.com>
> To: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:58 AM
> Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"
>
>
> > In a message dated 8/7/2003 10:09:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> dmschmidt@sprint.ca writes:
> >
> > < Yes.....that sure is a sensible, non judgemental comment if ever I
heard
> one.  Contrary to what you believe, not all dealers operate outside of the
> law.......but unfortunately there are far too many "professionals" and
> "academics" out there with your mindset who will just never believe that
> > commercial collecting can be done responsibly, and to the mutual benefit
> of both business and legitimate science. >
> >
> > Both your stance and mine on the question are well known and documented
in
> the DML archives.  As a member of SVP, I take the ethics statement very
> seriously: http://www.vertpaleo.org/policy/ethics.html
> > and have been active in supporting The Paleontological Resources
> Preservation Act (H.R. 2416).  Anything less would be a sell(out).
> >
> > See also SVP's statement at:
> > http://www.vertpaleo.org/policy/policy_statement_Preservation.html
> > and Richard Stucky's testimony in front of the US Senate Committee on
> Energy and Natural Resources at:
> > http://www.senate.gov/%7Eenergy/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=325&wit_id=760
> >
> > < I thank God everyday for the GROWING number of acdemics out there who
do
> not share your outdated beliefs..........>
> > Do you have statistics on this groundswell movement?
> >
> > Mary
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>