Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"

["Cliff Green" <dinonaut@emerytelcom.net>]

Dear List,

    At this point, I am concluding that Micheal Schmidt is a former list
member, but hopefully he sees this post.
    You are claiming that Mary Kirkaldy is being clouded by emotion, in her
stance against commercial fossil collecting, but then you go into a multi
paragraph tome with wild accusations and innuendos. The academia has done
thier homework on the damage of commercial collecting.
    I live right on top of one of the richest vertebrate fossil areas in the
world. I can tell you dozens of stories about self proclaimed "Professional
" commercial people stealing our dig sites blind.Even the ones digging up
fossils legally will throw priceless fossils over the sides of thier sites
in order to get to the claws, premaxillas and other trinkets.
    It has been my experience, especially after attending The Tucson Fossil
Show, this past February, that the number of commercial people who care more
about the scientific value of the fossils that they sell, over the almighty
dollar, can be numbered on one hand, ... minus a few fingers.

Cliff Green


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Schmidt" <dmschmidt@sprint.ca>
To: <MKIRKALDY@aol.com>
Cc: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"


just the academics I sell fossil materials to on a fairly regular
basis........legally, and without complaints from them, I may add.

As both you and I say, you have your opinion, and I have mine.  It's just
too bad you let emotion cloud your viewpoint into making you believe that
all fossil dealers are unlawful.  Until such a law is passed, making it
illegal to deal in fossil materials, your comments are nothing but biased
and ignorant.  Your SVP ethics statement is NOT LAW, regardless of how much
you would like it to be.

Strange how you guys always fall back on that statement, yet when any sales
fall within the criteria listed within the statement

"The barter, sale, or purchase of scientifically significant vertebrate
fossils is not condoned unless it brings them into, or keeps them within, a
public trust. Any other trade or commerce in scientifically significant
vertebrate fossils is inconsistent with the foregoing, in that it deprives
both the public and professionals of important specimens, which are part of
our natural heritage. "

you still complain that people like me shouldn't be able to sell specimens.

Am I the scum of the earth for just selling the local university a very
large and complete vertebrate specimen?  Some of you would think so, yet
according to the statement above, I have done nothing wrong.  Correct?  I
sold the specimen, which was professionally collected and partially prepared
(again, professionally), along with all the scientific data required.  I
made a little money, and the university got a world class specimen for a
small percentage of what it would have cost them to go collect the specimen
themselves.  Tell me what I have done that is unethical?  Nothing, as far as
I can see....especially considering I could have made MORE money selling it
privately.

Let's see what your statement says.......

"to discover, conserve, and protect vertebrate fossils and to foster the
scientific, educational, and personal appreciation and understanding of them
by amateur, student and professional paleontologists, as well as the general
public."

That's interesting.........notice how it says the general public, and
amateur paleontologists?

It is the responsibility of vertebrate paleontologists to assist government
agencies in the development of management policies and regulations pertinent
to the collection of vertebrate fossils, and to comply with those policies
and regulations during and after collection. Necessary permits on all lands
administered by federal, state, and local governments, whether domestic or
foreign, must be obtained from the appropriate agency(ies) before fossil
vertebrates are collected. Collecting fossils on private lands must only be
done with the landowner's consent.

I have more than 1 story that has been told to me by involved parties of
academics tresspassing on private land, and of bullying landowners into
believing they had no right to stop any academic from coming onto their
property and collecting whatever they wanted in the name of science.  In
some cases when reported to the authorities, the allegations were dismissed
as a "misunderstanding"....funny, when a commercial collector is caught
accidentally collecting literally 10 feet inside BLM land, when it is an
honest mistake of a law abiding collector with absolutely no problems with
the law.....he is fined $10,000 by the Federal government.  As well, when
specimens that are in collections in local museums and universities- part of
a public trust, correct??- are thrown out because there is little room to
store a lot of it anymore, where is the enforcement or adherence to your
statement then?

While some museums are good about it, other museums do not let non-academics
view specimens in their collections.  Why is this?  According to the
staement above, these specimens should be available to the interested
public...if they are in public institutions paid for by tax dollars,
correct?  yet, in many cases, they are not allowed this access.  I think it
is very interesting the way academics cling to this statement when it serves
their purposes, yet quite a few of them find it difficult to adhere to it.
Much like everything else in life (laws, religion, agreements, whatever)
they pick it apart and select what parts will serve them the best.  If other
aspects hinder them in some way, they just kind of ignore them....and later
on claim it was just a misunderstanding.  Not all academics do this...the
majority are fair, honest people.  it is just a small few judging by what I
have seen...just like the majority of fossil dealers don't run around
raiding dig sites and selling off complete allosaurs......Why is it an
industry gets condemned by the actions of a precious few, but the scientific
community seems to be (in some cases) above the law?



I do not disagree with the majority of what this statement says.  What I
disagree with is:

1.  Why it singles out vertebrates specimens.  Yes, yes, I know...it's the
SVP, but I think if you are going to have a charter, or law, etc., then have
one that protects ALL fossils.  You will NEVER be able to convince me that
an isolated Albertosaurus tooth found while surface collecting is far more
scientifically important and worthy of protection than a complete
anomalocaris specimen.

2.  Some vertebrate specimens are available in HUGE quantities, and it would
certainly not harm science to have a good number of these specimens
commercially available.  I read somewhere that the 3 most common fish
present in the Green River Formation may be present there in numbers
exceeding the billions.......Please tell me how a guy with a quarry in Utah
selling knightias and diplomystuses is taking anything away from science????
Again, see your statement......"scientifically significant vertebrate
fossils".  You tell me how a single common Knightia oceana is any more
significant than 100,000 others?  Who decides whether it is or not?  Some
biased academic, such as yourself?

I will be the first one to applaud any country's efforts to protect fossil
resources and to rally for protection of important specimens.  I live in
Canada, and unlike your country, I must get permission from the Canadian
government to export any fossil material, via granting of a permit.
Possession doesn't mean squat if you want to export it.  This gives the
government an opportunity to acquire the specimen for national or Provincial
collections.  Citizens in your country can go out in their back yard, dig up
a T-rex, and sell it to the highest bidder........that seems a little
twisted to me.  Unfortunately, you live in a society where private property
laws are paramount.  Try to confiscate something like that from the
legitimate owners, and you'll become aware of another of your enshrined
rights....the right to bear arms.

I deal with a lot of academics who live in the 21st century, and who believe
that a balance can be struck between RESPONSIBLE commercial collecting, and
legitimate scientific research.  My professor here travels to Morocco every
year to purchase trilobite specimens from a commercial dealer.  They are
collected and prepared there, and he either travels out there to pick them
up and do the field work he needs to do, or the specimens are (rarely)
delivered to him.  He is one of the top people in his field....but then
again, trilobites that are known by only a handful of specimens are not
worthy of the same protection and consideration afforded a broken
Carcharadontosaurus tooth, are they?

I could live my entire life LEGALLY collecting vertebrate fossils and
selling everything last thing I ever collected to academic institutions, and
people like yourself would still twist your SVP statement into whatever you
needed it to say in order to have contempt for me.  I have seen a lot of
examples of fossil material being sold privately that should have gone to
museums, but I have also seen many examples of carelessness and recklessness
by so-called academics and professionals.  The difference is, the academics
seem to be above the law.......strange, isn't it?  Two sets of laws for 2
different groups.......

Be honest..........you LOATHE fossil dealers whether they conform to your
statement or not.  Responsible or legal collecting will never be the issue
with you.........only collecting for profit.

It's nice to meet others in your field who do not share your beliefs.  I
also truly hope that zero tolerance attitude disappears in the years to
come.

Good luck with your proposed Draconian laws.....maybe the money your
government collects in fines once it's imposed can be used to re-open some
of your museums that have recently closed down.......

Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: <MKIRKALDY@aol.com>
To: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"


> In a message dated 8/7/2003 10:09:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dmschmidt@sprint.ca writes:
>
> < Yes.....that sure is a sensible, non judgemental comment if ever I heard
one.  Contrary to what you believe, not all dealers operate outside of the
law.......but unfortunately there are far too many "professionals" and
"academics" out there with your mindset who will just never believe that
> commercial collecting can be done responsibly, and to the mutual benefit
of both business and legitimate science. >
>
> Both your stance and mine on the question are well known and documented in
the DML archives.  As a member of SVP, I take the ethics statement very
seriously: http://www.vertpaleo.org/policy/ethics.html
> and have been active in supporting The Paleontological Resources
Preservation Act (H.R. 2416).  Anything less would be a sell(out).
>
> See also SVP's statement at:
> http://www.vertpaleo.org/policy/policy_statement_Preservation.html
> and Richard Stucky's testimony in front of the US Senate Committee on
Energy and Natural Resources at:
> http://www.senate.gov/%7Eenergy/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=325&wit_id=760
>
> < I thank God everyday for the GROWING number of acdemics out there who do
not share your outdated beliefs..........>
> Do you have statistics on this groundswell movement?
>
> Mary
>
>