RE: Germany then and now

[Anthony Docimo <keenir@hotmail.com>]

> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:27:59 -0700
> From: turtlecroc@yahoo.com
> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
> Subject: Re: Germany then and now
 
> Political correctness has so permeated our society that 
> it's become almost impossible to discuss or even mention 
> anything that isn't "nice" and "likable". People are 
> programmed to pick up on keywords, 
 
 I'm reminded of a recent(ish) discussion about drawings, diagrams, and if they 
should be allowed to look at all like yours.  keywords are like pictures - we 
don't all look for certain ones.
 
> I find that more distasteful than the words themselves. 
> Btw, i'm part German. 
 
 and?  so?  therefore?  I'm also part German - doesn't mean I like being called 
a Kraut.
 

> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 9/29/11, Jason Brougham <jaseb@amnh.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Jason Brougham <jaseb@amnh.org>
> > Subject: Re: Germany then and now
> > To: qi_leong@hotmail.com
> > Cc: "Greg Paul" <gsp1954@aol.com>, "Dinosaur Mailing List" 
> > <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, September 29, 2011, 12:44 PM
> >
> > We can't be insulting whole
> > ethnicities on this list. Let's be civil.
> > 
> > Let's not blame everyone in a language group for the
> > political acts of people 60 or more years ago. Let's not
> > assign personalities or tendencies to someone based on their
> > national origin. 
> > 
> > Evolutionary theory has been distorted in the past to fit
> > supremacist and capitalist ideologies, that is a legitimate
> > field to debate: wherever we suspect that work done in these
> > periods was distorted to fit political agendas.
> > 
> > It is not legitimate to stereotype all Germans as precise.
> > I can find you some imprecise Germans and some super
> > precise... I don't know, hippies? Americans? Spaniards?...
> > if you want me to. Now, I have a great grandfather Friedrich
> > and so I use the K word sometimes, but its different when we
> > call each other that. But I don't just drop it in public
> > without explanation. 
> > 
> > I will also remind you of anti-German violence in the
> > United States during both world wars. Whole German language
> > libraries were burned.
> > 
> > I am as antifascist a person as you will ever meet, 
> litical tendency was not some innate flaw
> > in some "German character". It runs through all societies.
> > 
> > 
> > On Sep 29, 2011, at 1:30 PM, Jaime Headden wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > Where in the Mary Anning does one
> > think that paleos are unaware of our deep history? We are
> > familiar with historical elements of collection and are
> > reminded of this in sharp detail any time anyone has to back
> > track through a fieldbook from the 20s or before the
> > beginning of the last century, who was in any way familiar
> > with the collection programs in the south of England, in
> > what is now Belgium and in northern Italy, collectors and
> > prospectors travelling to European colonies abroad and
> > arriving in Java and southern Africa. You think that we are
> > somehow ignorant?
> > > 
> > > Do you seriously think this is an
> > adequate defense of your use of these throwaway terms, or
> > your bigotry?
> > > 
> > > I call your bluff, Greg: The use of
> > the terms "Kraut" and "fascist" have in no way an element of
> > "paleo history" to them in connection to Werner Janensch or
> > Willi Hennig, regardless of whether they were members of the
> > Nazis, and are only bigoted in the purest form, and this
> > post an inadequate way to cover your tail on this score.
> > It's come up before and you've been called on it before. If
> > you want to discuss this, write a book and place these
> > remarks (with evidence!) in there. Maybe some of us might
> > actually pick it up. Until then, I think, it doesn't belong
> > on this list.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > Jaime A. Headden
> > > The Bite Stuff (site v2)
> > > http://qilong.wordpress.com/
> > > 
> > > "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B.
> > Medawar (1969)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger
> > with a
> > > different language and a new way of looking at things,
> > the human race
> > > has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to
> > learn his language or
> > > his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan
> > (Beast With a Billion Backs)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -------------------------------
> m: GSP1954@aol.com
> > >> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
> > >> Subject: Re: Germany then and now
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> In a message dated 9/29/11 11:21:03 AM, paleeoguy@gmail.com
> > writes:
> > >> 
> > >> << Get your measurements, Greg. That`s what
> > this list is for. Please go
> > >> 
> > >> to WWII forum if you want to rag on 20th century
> > Germany. >>
> > >> 
> > >> Although I can understand where some of this is
> > coming from, in the end I
> > >> disagree. There is a real danger to popular paleo
> > pretending that the field
> > >> has in a sense no deep history outside the rather
> > cheerful tale we are
> > >> normally presented. It is rather like how it is
> > only recently being acknowledged
> > >> that even the NE US was heavily dependent upon
> > slavery until the early 1800s.
> > >> I had no clue that the White House was built
> > largely by slaves until fairly
> > >> recently, or that early NYC was also built to a
> > great extent by bonded
> > >> humans.
> > >> 
> > >> Of course this list can include extensive
> > discussions on paleohistory,
> > >> especially the "fun & entertaining side" such
> > as the famous Marsh-Cope feud and
> > >> what it was like to work at Garden Park and Como
> > Bluff in the 1880s. But
> > >> what happened at Tendaguru? It was the largest
> > dinosaur "mining" operation that
> > >> I know of, involving hundreds of colonized
> > laborers. What circumstances
> > >> were they operating under? Where they happy to
> > have the pay however minimal I
> > >> suspect it was? Or were they in some way
> > discontented or forced by the German
> > >> colonizers? How did it connect with the notorious
> > genocides underway in
> > >> Africa at that time? And what happened when the
> > Brits took over? Where they
> > >> nicer, or worse? That the fate of all these
> > Africans has been largely ignored
> > >> in favor of the western oriented focus of
> > paleohistory is not to the credit
> > >> of the paleocommunity.
> > >> 
> > >> For example, is the circumstances that the
> > Africans worked at Tendaguru
> > >> covered at the new HMN exhibit? If not it should
> > be researched and covered at
> > >> the
> This sort of thing has practical
> > implications for modern paleo.
> > >> By treating the past efforts of colonized peoples
> > with more attention and
> > >> respect the field may enjoy better relations with
> > some current governments
> > >> where resentment against the colonial period
> > remains strong. Just waving it away
> > >> as being typical of those olden days is not the
> > best idea PR wise.
> > >> 
> > >> Likewise that some key German paleos were in deep
> > with the Nazis is fair
> > >> game for discussion. What I would better like to
> > know is who did what and
> > >> when. It's worth a book assumming it has not yet
> > been done -- better than yet
> > >> another tome on Marsh & Cope.
> > >> 
> > >> When I used the term Kraut for some Nazi era
> > paleos I was just venting a
> > >> little frustation about how bad some of the figure
> > scaling is in the
> > >> Palaeontolographica publication figures and text
> > -- the Germans are supposed to be so
> > >> meticulous after all -- and I did not expect any
> > notice of it. But in
> > >> hindsight the subject has greater import.
> > Paleontology is not just about
> > >> measurements and fossils, it is part of the
> > greater human story for better or for
> > >> worse.
> > >> 
> > >> GSPaul</HTML>
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Jason Brougham
> > Senior Principal Preparator
> > American Museum of Natural History
> > jaseb@amnh.org
> > (212) 496 3544
> > 
> > 
> >