RE: Germany then and now

[Jaime Headden <qi_leong@hotmail.com>]

  Unfortunately, any discussion, even outside of digital media, falls to 
Godwin's Law. It doesn't matter the terms being used: As this discussion shows, 
the conversation ceases to be about the topic in which the terms were 
unnecessarily introduced (qualifying the coracoid of the Tendaguru 
brachiosaur), and abou the terms themselves. Attempts to whitewash the 
discussion, by allowing the terms to somehow become mainstream, is to take the 
teeth out of what were and are poorly intended terms for which no legitimate 
purpose was intended in the discussion in which they were used, which was 
Greg's latest response.

  It isn't that the terms _were_ used, as in Heinrich's response in which 
another "historically relevant" (but ultimately inflamatory) term was used, but 
that how they were used, as in the casual speech in which Greg convicted 
several historical paleontologists and biologists regardless of the actual 
qualitative evidence for his accusations. If the argument Greg makes for his 
defense is worthy, why were the terms so easily inserted in the commentary on a 
coracoid and proportions? Why are we not talking about the racist attitudes of 
early American paleontologists such as O. C. Marsh and applying horrible terms 
to them? If the conversation is important and necessary, then have it, but have 
that be the topic and discussion; don't try to throw these terms around as if 
it's part of casual speech and viable to use for any reason. Because they are 
not. Regardless of whether we agree with these terms, at no time does it seem 
to me that the functional use of the term in a given situation qualify its use 
in _every_ situation; and calling a German a "Kraut" when the former term would 
be just as useful and less incendiary sort of proves that Greg's intention 
_was_ inflamatory. This is especially significant given Greg's reasoning: "I 
was just venting a little frustation[sic] [.]" 

  Thus I see no legitimate purpose for Greg's terms, and no suitable defense. 
This is a paleontological list, and while historical characterizations can be 
useful, they are not for the discussion at hand, and not qualifying the _use of 
historical terms for historical purposes_ during a discussion of coracoid 
proportions.

Cheers,

  Jaime A. Headden
  The Bite Stuff (site v2)
  http://qilong.wordpress.com/

"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)


"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a
different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race
has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or
his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion 
Backs)


----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:27:59 -0700
> From: turtlecroc@yahoo.com
> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
> Subject: Re: Germany then and now
>
> This thread and some of the responses (not all are below)
> remind me of Facebook: there's a "like" button but no
> "dislike" button.
>
> Political correctness has so permeated our society that
> it's become almost impossible to discuss or even mention
> anything that isn't "nice" and "likable". People are
> programmed to pick up on keywords, and if any disallowed
> words are encountered, the reader immediately goes into
> "dislike" mode, stops reading, and skims the remainder of
> the article/letter/email with extreme prejudice looking
> for any other disallowed words.
>
> I find that more distasteful than the words themselves.
> Btw, i'm part German.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 9/29/11, Jason Brougham <jaseb@amnh.org> wrote:
>
> > From: Jason Brougham <jaseb@amnh.org>
> > Subject: Re: Germany then and now
> > To: qi_leong@hotmail.com
> > Cc: "Greg Paul" <gsp1954@aol.com>, "Dinosaur Mailing List" 
> > <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, September 29, 2011, 12:44 PM
> >
> > We can't be insulting whole
> > ethnicities on this list. Let's be civil.
> >
> > Let's not blame everyone in a language group for the
> > political acts of people 60 or more years ago. Let's not
> > assign personalities or tendencies to someone based on their
> > national origin.
> >
> > Evolutionary theory has been distorted in the past to fit
> > supremacist and capitalist ideologies, that is a legitimate
> > field to debate: wherever we suspect that work done in these
> > periods was distorted to fit political agendas.
> >
> > It is not legitimate to stereotype all Germans as precise.
> > I can find you some imprecise Germans and some super
> > precise... I don't know, hippies? Americans? Spaniards?...
> > if you want me to. Now, I have a great grandfather Friedrich
> > and so I use the K word sometimes, but its different when we
> > call each other that. But I don't just drop it in public
> > without explanation.
> >
> > I will also remind you of anti-German violence in the
> > United States during both world wars. Whole German language
> > libraries were burned.
> >
> > I am as antifascist a person as you will ever meet,
> litical tendency was not some innate flaw
> > in some "German character". It runs through all societies.
> >
> >
> > On Sep 29, 2011, at 1:30 PM, Jaime Headden wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >   Where in the Mary Anning does one
> > think that paleos are unaware of our deep history? We are
> > familiar with historical elements of collection and are
> > reminded of this in sharp detail any time anyone has to back
> > track through a fieldbook from the 20s or before the
> > beginning of the last century, who was in any way familiar
> > with the collection programs in the south of England, in
> > what is now Belgium and in northern Italy, collectors and
> > prospectors travelling to European colonies abroad and
> > arriving in Java and southern Africa. You think that we are
> > somehow ignorant?
> > >
> > >   Do you seriously think this is an
> > adequate defense of your use of these throwaway terms, or
> > your bigotry?
> > >
> > >   I call your bluff, Greg: The use of
> > the terms "Kraut" and "fascist" have in no way an element of
> > "paleo history" to them in connection to Werner Janensch or
> > Willi Hennig, regardless of whether they were members of the
> > Nazis, and are only bigoted in the purest form, and this
> > post an inadequate way to cover your tail on this score.
> > It's come up before and you've been called on it before. If
> > you want to discuss this, write a book and place these
> > remarks (with evidence!) in there. Maybe some of us might
> > actually pick it up. Until then, I think, it doesn't belong
> > on this list.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > >  Jaime A. Headden
> > >  The Bite Stuff (site v2)
> > >  http://qilong.wordpress.com/
> > >
> > > "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B.
> > Medawar (1969)
> > >
> > >
> > > "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger
> > with a
> > > different language and a new way of looking at things,
> > the human race
> > > has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to
> > learn his language or
> > > his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan
> > (Beast With a Billion Backs)
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------
> m: GSP1954@aol.com
> > >> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
> > >> Subject: Re: Germany then and now
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In a message dated 9/29/11 11:21:03 AM, paleeoguy@gmail.com
> > writes:
> > >>
> > >> << Get your measurements, Greg. That`s what
> > this list is for. Please go
> > >>
> > >> to WWII forum if you want to rag on 20th century
> > Germany. >>
> > >>
> > >> Although I can understand where some of this is
> > coming from, in the end I
> > >> disagree. There is a real danger to popular paleo
> > pretending that the field
> > >> has in a sense no deep history outside the rather
> > cheerful tale we are
> > >> normally presented. It is rather like how it is
> > only recently being acknowledged
> > >> that even the NE US was heavily dependent upon
> > slavery until the early 1800s.
> > >> I had no clue that the White House was built
> > largely by slaves until fairly
> > >> recently, or that early NYC was also built to a
> > great extent by bonded
> > >> humans.
> > >>
> > >> Of course this list can include extensive
> > discussions on paleohistory,
> > >> especially the "fun & entertaining side" such
> > as the famous Marsh-Cope feud and
> > >> what it was like to work at Garden Park and Como
> > Bluff in the 1880s. But
> > >> what happened at Tendaguru? It was the largest
> > dinosaur "mining" operation that
> > >> I know of, involving hundreds of colonized
> > laborers. What circumstances
> > >> were they operating under? Where they happy to
> > have the pay however minimal I
> > >> suspect it was? Or were they in some way
> > discontented or forced by the German
> > >> colonizers? How did it connect with the notorious
> > genocides underway in
> > >> Africa at that time? And what happened when the
> > Brits took over? Where they
> > >> nicer, or worse? That the fate of all these
> > Africans has been largely ignored
> > >> in favor of the western oriented focus of
> > paleohistory is not to the credit
> > >> of the paleocommunity.
> > >>
> > >> For example, is the circumstances that the
> > Africans worked at Tendaguru
> > >> covered at the new HMN exhibit? If not it should
> > be researched and covered at
> > >> the
> This sort of thing has practical
> > implications for modern paleo.
> > >> By treating the past efforts of colonized peoples
> > with more attention and
> > >> respect the field may enjoy better relations with
> > some current governments
> > >> where resentment against the colonial period
> > remains strong. Just waving it away
> > >> as being typical of those olden days is not the
> > best idea PR wise.
> > >>
> > >> Likewise that some key German paleos were in deep
> > with the Nazis is fair
> > >> game for discussion. What I would better like to
> > know is who did what and
> > >> when. It's worth a book assumming it has not yet
> > been done -- better than yet
> > >> another tome on Marsh & Cope.
> > >>
> > >> When I used the term Kraut for some Nazi era
> > paleos I was just venting a
> > >> little frustation about how bad some of the figure
> > scaling is in the
> > >> Palaeontolographica publication figures and text
> > -- the Germans are supposed to be so
> > >> meticulous after all -- and I did not expect any
> > notice of it. But in
> > >> hindsight the subject has greater import.
> > Paleontology is not just about
> > >> measurements and fossils, it is part of the
> > greater human story for better or for
> > >> worse.
> > >>
> > >> GSPaul</HTML>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jason Brougham
> > Senior Principal Preparator
> > American Museum of Natural History
> > jaseb@amnh.org
> > (212) 496 3544
> >
> >
> >