Re: [dinosaur] Dinosaur blood clots detected with UV autofluorescence in drowned Triceratops (free pdf)

When asked whether the research conducted by J. Mengele in Nazi-occupied territories, Yee et al. [https://www.surgjournal.com/article/S0039-6060(18)30481-1/fulltext] asked ethical questions about the source of the research. By considering the author and the means of obtaining that research, by considering the *fallacies* of the researcher (ad hominem) and their origin, by considering their *context*, we should absolutely consider that some research is attempting to squeak around the barriers to quackery in order to present this research elsewhere as legitimate underpinning for their scientifically and soundly rejected arguments.

We considered this with the "Kraken's drawings" of ichthyosaur fossils, itself presented at SVP, as well as research regarding so-called Flood events, and even more recently the "phrenology" paper in a high-profile journal. In this case, the paper is drawing a connection that has long been a mainstay of modern Creationist ministry (when according with science, affirming the near-antiquity of the Earth and the existence of dinosaurs as Biblical "giants" or similar form) -- that large dinosaurs all died due to drowning, thus "proving" the Great Flood. No other research not of this form makes it through peer-review, because the authors are careful to choose subjects that are otherwise incontrovertibly found in water-laid deposits. They shore up their biases.

We should be just as speculative were this an archaeological list servÂwhen research affirming humans painted drawings on cave walls of dinosaurs, or carved them in relief on the towers of SE Asian temples,Âor that the monstrosities of ancient Persia were depictions of one-living beings in near-fidelity. The ethics and the purpose of the research must necessarily be considered, else the science that results will be subject to the errors of its methods.Â

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 2:41 PM Mike Taylor <sauropoda@gmail.com> wrote:

Folks, we need to be careful not to go ad-hominem on this.

The question to ask is not: is the scientist sound? It's: is the science sound?

-- Mike.

On Wed, 30 Sep 2020 at 18:30, Ben Creisler <bcreisler@gmail.com> wrote:
Ben Creisler
bcreisler@gmail.com

I didn't double-check this one completely before I posted it, so my apologies. Thanks for pointing out the additional issues about the research. The paper comes from an otherwise legitimate scientific journal to my knowledge. I think have posted a few of his papers before from otherÂtechnical journals, but they don't directly argue for his beliefs in theÂtext. I don't think the paper directly advocates for a recent date on the fossils that I can find. If the technique used is valid or not may be the question, rather than a questionable interpretation that is not discussed.Â

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 10:11 AM Tyler Greenfield <tgreenfield999@gmail.com> wrote:
Note that this paper was authored by a creationist (Mike Armitage) who has been trying to publish these claims for years. There are even hints to his creationist beliefs in the abstract ("Moreover, our ultraviolet fluorescence (UVFL) study of Triceratops horn, rib, vertebra, and frill thin sections shows extensive clotting in most vessel canals, probably as a result of asphyxia while drowning").

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 11:39 AM Ben Creisler <bcreisler@gmail.com> wrote:

Ben Creisler
bcreisler@gmail.com

Not yet mentioned:

Free pdf:

Mark H. Armitage and Jim Solliday (2020)
UV Autofluorescence Microscopy of Dinosaur Bone Reveals Encapsulation of Blood Clots within Vessel Canals.
Microscopy Today 28: 30-38
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/S1551929520001340
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/microscopy-today/article/uv-autofluorescence-microscopy-of-dinosaur-bone-reveals-encapsulation-of-blood-clots-within-vessel-canals/8762E671960898DAC303973A5A2A93F6

Remarkable discoveries such as condensed chromatin in duckbill dinosaur cartilage and newly presented discoveries of dinosaur vascular veins, venule valves, and nerve fibers (this report) warrant study of global dinosaur remains for preserved soft tissue (dST). Dinosaur osteocytes feature dendritic projections (filipodia) of lengths up to 18 Âm, while osteocytes collected from a Triceratops horn have lengths of 25 Âm or longer. While preservation methods for dST involve the degradation of sugars into glycation end products and the employment of highly oxidative hydroxyl radicals to "fix" tissues, we note that lengthy and narrow osteocyte filipodia show no signs of hydroxyl radical infiltration into the lacuna-canalicular network. Moreover, our ultraviolet fluorescence (UVFL) study of Triceratops horn, rib, vertebra, and frill thin sections shows extensive clotting in most vessel canals, probably as a result of asphyxia while drowning. Further UVFL autofluorescence study of dinosaur bone sections is vital for characterization of dinosaur blood clots.

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