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Re: Mamenchisaurus Posture Paper



I honestly don't know the answers to the following since I have not ever really focused on the big guys as they didn't appear to hang out up here on the Montana/Wyoming border. Why do sauropods have to hold their necks up high? The advantage of a long neck may have been like a long arm, reaching out and picking up sweet morsels instead of reaching up. The tail counterbalances and a really big lawn mower is born (so to speak). Is the mainstream opinion that they were high browsers? (Do their neck verts allow articulation in that way?) Is it necessary to look for a mechanism to allow high browsing when it may not have been a method used for feeding. (Granted it has to be thought out.) Another metaphorical analogue comes to mind.... How much vertical distance does a large whale have from its heart to it's brain when it is swimming straight up? It has to be several meters. Does water pressure alter the mechanism somehow? Did the big sauropods spend most of their time browsing in lakes below the water level instead of terrestrially feeding or is it all conjecture at this point with no data to support either hypothesis?

I also mention that pilots have special pressure suits and use gutteral (sic) muscle contractions to raise blood pressure in the cranium to prevent blackout. Granted that military mast trousers were not common in the Mesozoic but I suspect that the abdominal muscles were pretty well developed in these animals. A little gut straining could very significantly raise blood pressure significantly. In humans, lots of cerebral strokes happen on the stool from straining!

Frank Bliss
MS Biostratigraphy
Weston, Wyoming
On May 31, 2005, at 10:24 PM, Roger Seymour wrote:



David Marjanovic wrote:

Well... veins have valves, so perhaps a little ectopic expression of a few
genes...? But then perhaps valves are not necessary (of course the maths on
this could be done pretty fast). Perhaps peristaltic arteries -- relaxing at
the base of the neck in each systole, then contracting in the diastole,
starting a wave of contraction that propagated upwards -- would have helped,
too. No more of a heart than the lateral hearts of an earthworm. :-)


Sauropods were quite a bit larger than earthworms, and it is important
to realise that the pressure at the base of a fluid column is in
proportion to the absolute vertical height above it.  If a peristaltic
carotid artery were to function, it would have to interrupt this column
of blood and prevent the column from exerting its pressure at the heart
(i.e. the arterial walls would have to close completely, as in a
mechanical peristaltic pump).  Like the appearance of valves in the
arteries, it is difficult to see how such an arrangement could evolve
from an artery with no peristaltic action.  Intermediates (less than
full closure) would have no value.

On the size of giraffes:
Where does the commonly cited figure of 7 m come from? Was this an
overestimate, or a measurement of a distorted specimen? Or was it real, like
the occasional elephant that is heavier than 12 t?

Some giraffes might get up just above 5 m and and would be considered to
be within the normal range, but the average giraffe is less than that.
Maybe there is an odd giant for the record books, but you can bet that
its arterial blood pressure and the size of its heart would be
predictably larger. Compared to the length of sauropod necks, the
giraffe neck is quite short.


Compared to elephants, they did take the long-legged approach. Compared to
giraffes they didn't, but then giraffes can and do run, while sauropods were
graviportal like elephants. Perhaps it's significant that the sauropods
already most commonly thought to have had vertical necks -- Brachiosauridae
(in the old sense at least) -- also had the longest forelimbs?

Having long forelimbs would help raise the heart of brachiosaurids, but would not do much to reduce the arterial blood pressure of a long vertical neck. If these animals held their necks horizontally, longer forelimbs would increase the height of the browsing area in front of them.