[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index][Subject Index][Author Index]
Re: Coelurosaur Analysis update, with Graciliraptor, Atrociraptor, Sinusonasus,
Tim Williams wrote-
> >- Archaeopterygids and scansoriopterygids are deinonychosaurs,
>
> A nit-picking nomenclatural observation: Aves (or Avialae) is defined such
> as to include _Archaeopteryx_. Therefore, under your phylogeny,
> Deinychosauria would be a clade within the Aves; and _Yandangornis_,
> _Sapeornis_ and _Omnivoropteryx_ would be excluded from the bird clade,
> which is anchored in _Archaeopteryx_ and _Vultur_.
Indeed, but where did I make the nomenclatural error? Or are you just
mentioning it because my topology leads to interesting consequences for it?
Note I used the definitions of Aves and Avialae sensu Chiappe (1996) and
Gauthier (1986) (Aves = Archaeopteryx lithographica + Vultur gryphus;
Avialae = Vultur gryphus <- Deinonychus antirrhopus).
> I am very surprised that _Therizinosaurus_ and alvarezsaurids were pulled
> together, considering the former has enormous forelimbs, and the latter
have
> very short forelimbs.
Now that I've finally got Neimongosaurus, Nothronychus and Nanshiungosaurus
to be segnosaurs instead of oviraptorosaurs, Therizinosaurus still doesn't
like following suit. Anyway, Therizinosaurus clades with alvarezsaurids due
to a combination of non-maniraptoran characters that other segnosaurs aren't
affected as much by because they have material besides forelimbs to help,
and maniraptoran characters that alvarezsaurids also have. Interestingly, a
couple of the Therizinosaurus+Alvarezsauridae characters will probably make
good synapomorphies within Segnosauria once things are sorted out.
David Marjanovic wrote-
> Unconsciously, Mickey has used this definition or something very much like
> it. To me it seems he excluded *Archaeopteryx* from Avialae _because_
> dromies and troodontids are not "birds".
No, I excluded it from Avialae because Deinonychus is by definition not an
avialan, and it was closer to Deinonychus than to ornithurines in the
topology. Avialae (sensu Gauthier, 1986) has nothing to do with
Archaeopteryx, it's concerned with Deinonychus and neornithines.
> (It looks like he wrote Avialae instead of Aves because the former name is
> now more commonly used, which is in turn the case because it almost has a
> clear definition while Aves currently requires a "sensu", and because it
> originally didn't invoke the "concept" of "bird" -- though this advantage
> has been lost; too few people know what "ala" means, so Avialae got to
> simply replace Aves among researchers of Mesozoic dinosaurs.)
No, Aves would be the clade containing Deinonychosauria and Avialae in my
topology. I didn't label it for the same reason I didn't label any other
clade that wasn't at a point where I had to break up the cladogram to fit it
into the message. Avialae requires a sensu too, as Avialae sensu Gauthier
and de Queiroz (2001) is (feathered wings homologous with Vultur gryphus and
used for powered flight), which would be the Omnivoropterygidae + Aves node
in my topology. Assuming neoflightlessness for Caudipteryx, it could
potentially be much more inclusive. Hence the crappiness of apomorphy-based
clades.
> Whew. Your analysis is already on par with the biggest published ones!
Yup, yet look how much I don't trust it. It has interesting implications
for how much I should trust any cladistic analysis.
> > `--+--+--+--Nomingia
> > | | `--Variraptor
>
> With a bootstrap support of over 3? :-}
I don't have the decades to spend waiting for a bootstrap analysis to
complete. :-)
> I think in the last 10 runs of your analysis you've discovered all things
I
> ever KNEW about coelurosaur phylogeny. :-)
I recommend taking Wilson's coding strategies to heart then, for it's they
who are responsible. As I wrote last night, I have my doubts as to their
accuracy. When I order characters as every other theropod worker does, I
get different results. (detailed below)
> > Maniraptorans are basally herbivorous in this phylogeny, with
> > deinonychosaurs and birds both developing carnivorous clades
> independently.
>
> (IMHO herbivory is only a safe inference for segnosaurs and
> *Incisivosaurus*, which means your intriguing result is actually
ambiguous.)
Well, Shenzhouraptor has seeds preserved in its body cavity, while
Caudipteryx and Sapeornis have gastroliths. Of course, oviraptorids were at
least omnivorous, so perhaps I should say "basally omnivorous/herbivorous".
Anyway, the 90% majority rule consensus when characters are ordered like
everyone else orders them-
|--Monolophosaurus
|--Sinraptor
|--Dryptosaurus
|--Proceratosaurus
|--Richardoestesia
`--+--Fukuiraptor
|--+--Allosaurus
| `--Acrocanthosaurus
|--Iliosuchus
|--Stokesosaurus
|--Aviatyrannis
|--+--"Alashansaurus
| `--+--Eotyrannus
| `--Calamosaurus
|--+--Gorgosaurus
| `--+--Tyrannosaurus
| `--Bagaraatan
`--+--Nqwebasaurus
`--+--NGMC 2124
`--+--+--Borsti
| `--Huaxiagnathus
`--+--Sinosauropteryx
`--+--Ornitholestes
`--+--+--Coelurus
| `--+--Scipionyx
| `--YPM 1996/1997
`--+--Compsognathus
`--+--+--Archaeornithoides
| `--+--+--Therizinosaurus
| | `--+--Mononykinae
| | `--+--Patagonykus
| | `--Alvarezsaurus
| `--+--Pelecanimimus
| `--+--Harpymimus
| `--+--Shenzhousaurus
| `--+--"Grusimimus"
| `--+--Garudimimus
| `--+--Sinornithomimus
| `--+--+--Deinocheirus
| | `--Anserimimus
|
`--+--Archaeornithomimus
| `--Ornithomimidae
`--Maniraptora
Maniraptora
|--+--+--Caudipteryx zoui
| | `--Caudipteryx sp. nov.
| `--+--+--Nomingia
| | `--+--Incisivosaurus
| | `--+--Caenagnathidae
| | `--+--Microvenator
| | `--Oviraptoridae
| |--Yixianosaurus
| `--+--+--Beipiaosaurus
| | `--Nothronychus
| `--+--Alxasaurus
| `--+--Nanshiungosaurus
| `--+--Segnosaurus
| `--+--Neimongosaurus
| `--Erliansaurus
`--+--+--Erlikosaurus
| `--Avimimus
`--+--Protarchaeopteryx
`--+--+--IGM 100/44
| |--Sinovenator
| |--Sinusonasus
| |--+--Byronosaurus
| | `--+--Sinornithoides
| | `--+--Saurornithoides mongoliensis
| | `--+--Saurornithoides junior
| | `--Troodon
| |--Utahraptor
| |--Pyroraptor
| `--+--+--Bambiraptor
| | `--+--Graciliraptor
| | `--+--+--Sinornithosaurus
| | | `--NGMC 91
| | `--+--Microraptor gui
| | `--+--Microraptor zhaoianus
| | `--Cryptovolans
| `--+--Variraptor
| |--IGM 100/1015
| |--Saurornitholestes
| `--+--+--Achillobator
| | `--Velociraptor
| `--+--+--Deinonychus
| | `--Unenlagia
| `--+--Adasaurus
| `--+--Dromaeosaurus
| `--Atrociraptor
`--Avialae
Avialae
|--Scansoriopterygidae
`--+--+--Archaeopteryx
| `--Wellnhoferia
`--+--Rahonavis
|--Yandangornis
|--Liaoningornis
`--+--+--Shenzhouraptor
| `--Jixiangornis
`--+--+--Sapeornis
| `--Omnivoropteryx
`--+--+--Confuciusornis
| `--Changchengornis
`--+--Jibeinia
`--+--Protopteryx
`--+--Longipteryx
`--+--Catalan nestling
`--+--Eocathayornis
`--+--Concornis
|--+--Sinornis
| `--Longirostravis
`--+--Iberomesornis
|--Eoalulavis
`--+--+--Aberratiodontus
| |--Boluochia
| |--Enantiornis
| |--Gobipteryx
| `--Noguerornis
`--+--Neuquenornis
`--+--Songlingornis
`--+--Patagopteryx
`--+--+--Yanornis
| `--Ornithurae
`--+--Ambiortus
`--+--Apsaravis
`--Yixianornis
Interesting how ordering philosophies change topologies.
Mickey Mortimer