Re: Crown groups

[Ivan Kwan <dino_rampage@hotmail.com>]

Not really following exactly what's going on here, but I've got a couple of 
lame jokes to make here:

Where do PANda, PANcake, PANgaea, PANdora, PANorama, PANama and PANtanal fit 
in here? (-_0)

What a pandemonium! (pan-stem clade of demonium?)

----Original Message Follows----
From: "T. Michael Keesey" <mightyodinn@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: mightyodinn@yahoo.com
To: Mailing List - Dinosaur <dinosaur@usc.edu>
CC: jonathan.r.wagner@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Crown groups
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:11:47 -0700 (PDT)

--- jonathan.r.wagner@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
> Keesey wrote:
> > So, why not have the same option in phylogenetic taxonomy? Panstem 
Clade
> > _Synapsida_, Crown Clade _Mammalia_, Stem Clade _Saurischia_, Node 
Clade
> > _Dinosauria_, Apomorphy Clade _Avialae_, etc.
>
> Yeah, but that kindof misses the point, which is that you can tell WHICH
> taxon
> for which the "pan-" name is the total group: e.g., Panmammalia is the 
total
> group of Mammalia. I don't see anything in your proposal that serves this
> purpose. So then why even bother?

This is true, and perhaps it would be good to have some sort of convention 
for
crown and panstem clades, since they are in 1:1 correspondence with each 
other.
It just seems to me that mandating affixes is something we should we were
trying to get AWAY from.

I already gave my "Panpan" example of why this would not be a good idea in 
all
instances. For some others:
Is _Panderichthys_ the panstem clade of _Derichthys_?
Is _Panthera_ the panstem clade of _Thera_?
Is _Panarthropoda_ the panstem clade of _Arthropoda_? (Well, they might try 
to
redefine it that way, but that's not what it means now.)
Is _Panoplosaurus_ the panstem clade of _Oplosaurus_?
Is _Pantotheria_ the panstem clade of _Totheria_?
etc., etc.

So, perhaps it's a good idea to link corresponding crowns and panstems in 
some
way, but I don't see how this could be it. Perhaps we could allow hyphens in
this one instance (_Pan-mammalia_)? Or perhaps there's another solution.

And perhaps this discussion should move to the PhyloCode Mailing List....

> That's not to say this isn't an interesting idea in its own right...

Thanks.

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