Re: The absurdity, the absurdity (was: Cooperating theropods?)

[Chris Campbell <sankarah@ou.edu>]

Jonathon Woolf wrote:
> 
> Chris Campbell (sankarah@ou.edu) wrote:
> 
> > Jonathon Woolf wrote:
> > > No, _not_ the same.  Chris, you're arguing in generalities.  Just look at 
> > > the > animals, OK?
> >
> > Yes, I am arguing in generalities, because dromaeosaurs differ from
> > modern predators in even the most general means imaginable.  Compared to
> > a dromaeosaur, cats and dogs have an awful lot in common -- that was my
> > only point.
> 
> Physiologically, yes -- ecologically, no.  Dogs are omnivorous, 
> ground-bound chase hunters that kill their prey by swarming it 
> and inflicting so much damage that it dies of massive tissue 
> injury and blood loss.  

Not necessarily.  Dogs also clamp down on the muzzle of their prey,
suffocating it -- a tactic very similar in effect if not delivery to the
strangulation bite of cats.  

> Cats are tree-capable, purely carnivorous ambush hunters, 
> which kill either by breaking the neck or by suffocation.  If 
> you want to find a modern analog for packhunting dromaeosaurs, 
> you could do a lot worse than wolves and African hunting dogs.

Yeah, that's probably true.  Dogs are a helluva lot better candidates
than cats, that's for sure.  Still, dogs use much more coordination and
teamwork than I think could be ascribed to a Deinonychus, and they would
attack their prey in completely different manners.  I very much doubt
suffocation/strangulation would be part of a Deinonychus attack, for
example.  
 
> > > > > The tactics that work against a cat that can only run a hundred meters
> > > > > before dropping don't work against a predator that can dog the prey's
> > > > > heels for miles, until the prey animal finally tires and falls.
> > > >
> > > > Depends.  Horns work pretty well regardless.
> > >
> > > Most large mammalian herbivores have no horns, or their horns are not 
> > > usable as
> > > weapons.
> >
> > Bison?  Buffalo?  Elk?  Moose?  Wildebeest?  These are our large
> > mammalian predators, andthey allhave either horns or antlers (and all
> > use them in defense).
> 
> Wildebeest, use their horns in defense?  I think if you look carefully, 
> you'll find that they use
> their _mass_ in defense, especially that great blocky head, and the horns 
> just happen to go where
> the head goes.  Like most of the smaller antelope, their primary defense is 
> RLH.  Once a gnu is
> cornered and surrounded, it's had it unless the attackers decide to give up.  
> As for elk and moose
> -- I did say _most_, didn't I? <g>  Elk and moose both belong to the 
> Cervidae.  Many cervids have
> antlers that are usable in defense.

I'll concede the point on wildebeest, since, as you say, their primary
defense is RLH.  The others, though, use horns/antlers quite
effectively.  Cervids, bovids; yup, that covers large mammalian
hervivores.  Well, except for rhinos and elephants.  No one really eats
them, though (crazy Savuti lions notwithstanding), so they're not an
issue.
 
> > Which, again, is why I said "perhaps" and "might".  We don't know, and
> > that means theories of pack hunting and preferred prey should not be
> > dismissed out of turn because we can't find a modern analog.  We simply
> > have no idea.
> 
> As I said, if you want a modern analog for packhunting theropods, start with 
> wolves or wild dogs.
> Other than the intelligence question, there's nothing inherently impractical 
> or implausible about
> packhunting theropods.  

I agree.  

>I _do_ have a problem with the jumping on and off scenario somebody
>proposed -- 

That would be me.  It was just a thought, and I'm open to other
interpretations.

>I don't think the big foot claw was used that way.  Matter of fact, I'm not 
>convinced
> the foot claw had any practical use at all.

You'll have to elaborate a bit here.  Why go to the trouble of growing
it if it has no use at all?  Sexual selection?  Its design would make it
very good for piercing; whether or not it was used in that manner is
another issue, though I do think it would be a physically feasible
scenario.  

Chris