Re: DEFENSIVE RINGS AGAIN

[JCMcL <darwincr@laplaza.taos.nm.us>]

On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, D.W.Naish wrote:

> > Wild bovids (muskoxen, Cape buffalo, bison, etc.), which in many ways 
> > appear to be the ecologic corollaries to ceratopsians, use their horns in 
> > ring-defense of young, adults facing outward toward predators.  
> > John McLoughlin
> 
> As I tried to show quite some time ago here on the list, the validity of
> defensive rings as anti-predator responses is very suspect in modern animals,
> let alone extinct ones. So far, I am aware of defensive rings reported in
> horses, cape buffalo, reindeer, bison, (possibly) oryx, baleen whales, small
> dolphins and musk ox. The only well documented cases (sigh, ASAIK) apply to 
> musk
> ox and I now think they're valid, having seen lots of photos of the beasts. 
> BUT
> musk oxen assume a roughly (very roughly) circular organisation even when not
> on the defensive: presumably it suits their habitat and acts as a early 
> warning
> system. The objections about ring-formation in ceratopsians have been raised
> previously by John Horner and Greg Paul, so I'll save you all some grief and 
> not
> repeat them.
> 
> The stuff about musk ox keeping the babies in the middle is probably bunk too,
> as in the photos the babies form a large part of the circle rim!
> 
> Great to see you on the net John.
> 
> "Flying saucers are real. Period."
> 
> DARREN NAISH
> 
Having just returned from my alien AB-duction, Darren, a little tale.  
When I was in Africa, we had a red Land Rover in which we bounced about.  
We were young, then, and even stupider than now, by the way.

At Umfolozi, we bounced unexpectedly upon a conclave of Cape BOO fellow, 
as the natives called 'em.   They lined right up, the big ones, maybe 
seven or eight of them, facing us, shoulder-to-shoulder.  The lesser ones 
took off.

Okay, it wasn't a ring defense.  It was sort of a line offense.  At 
least, we took it to be an offense, and we left.  

I think that the horns of animals wherein both males and females have 
them are often used in defense.  Alas, a lot of humans try to test this 
by approaching such animals on foot. 

I think that organized patterns of defense in such animals break down in 
the presence of humans, because humans use projectiles to kill.  
Even bovids, presumably, can distinguish between humans and, say, cats.  

Again, I speak with less certainty than Darren, there, for certainty 
(especially about animals long extinct) is not a strong point of mine.  
But the presence in many topsies of "cheek" horns argues for a very 
effective defense against small fast carnivora, in that standing 
side-to-side, the adults even defend whatever gaps may be between them.  

Too, in the presence of small fast carnivora like those of the upper 
Mesozoic, undefended hatchling ceratopsians would have been topsy 
mcnuggets if their parents simply ran away every time something Ogly 
showed up.  
Ah, though, I only wish I were more CERTAIN, like Darren.  Certainty 
would solve a lot of my problems.

Fundamentalist creationists are certain, aren't they?

Och! perish forbid!

Have fun.

John McLoughlin