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Re: [dinosaur] Would non-avian dinosaur survive through the whole Cenozoic?



Outcrop area is not necessarily a good proxy for predicting (terrestrial) diversity, see e.g. Dunhill (2012), Dunhill et al. (2014), Walker et al. (2017), and getting outcrop area/exposure area on a global scale is a non-trivial task (even less so the density of fossils per formation). So far, we are still waiting for a good proxy that reflects sampling/research effort, etc.

The authors tried to account for various sampling biases with the data that was available at the time. If you try to implement the modelling approach they took you will see that it is a very neat framework (especially its flexibility is quite nice, as pointed out by Mitchell et al., 2019), but it required hell a lot of work to carry out. They went way beyond of what similar studies did in the past, which also tried to correct for sampling bias (e.g., Benson & Mannion, 2012; Benson & Upchurch, 2013; Tennant et al., 2016).
Obviously, there will always be room for improvements. Chiarenza et al. (2019) is a very neat approach to the topic, and definitely needs further consideration. I would argue that (at least the way it is implemented at the moment) the results of Chiarenza et al. (2019) can also be interpreted in a different way and do not necessarily show what they are claiming they show (see also the reviewers' comments in the supplement). Nonetheless, it is definitely an exciting contribution to the issue.

I am not so sure what you mean with "actually known fossils". The results are obviously based on what is known at the moment - but that is trivial and also holds true for the opposite interpretation of the fossil record. So, I think I misunderstand you here: What do you mean by this?

The shape of the curves is determined by the mathematical properties of the involved models. For a model with constant speciation/cladogenetic rates (I will stick to speciation since that is the commonly used term) and extinction rates (with spec. rates > ext. rates) you expect a linear increase in the number of speciation events in log space through time. If speciation rate decreases through time and is ultimately surpassed by extinction rate, you expect a quadratic relationship (also holds true for the opposite case, where speciation rate increases through time + extinction rate remains constant).
You then fit your models to the data and assess which model performs best. That will tell you whether non-avian dinosaurs as a whole were in decline or not (in terms of speciational capability). You can add various covariates to account for other effects involved (e.g., sampling bias, extrinsic controls on speciation dynamics, etc.), but it is not necessary for the model per se.
Note also, that for some ornithischian subclades, no decline is recovered.


I did not want to start a discussion (not enough time, I am afraid), but merely point out, that the following statement does not necessarily reflect current consensus:
"The idea that few new species _did_ evolve in the last few million years of the Cretaceous has long been abandoned: it was based simply on the fact that the Campanian record of North America is better than the Maastrichtian record of North America."



Benson, R. B. J. & Mannion, P. D.
Multi-variate models are essential for understanding vertebrate diversification in deep time
Biology Letters, 2012, 8, 127-130

Benson, R. B. & Upchurch, P.
Diversity trends in the establishment of terrestrial vertebrate ecosystems: interactions between spatial and temporal sampling biases
Geology, 2013, 41, 43-46

Chiarenza, A. A.; Mannion, P. D.; Lunt, D. J.; Farnsworth, A.; Jones, L. A.; Kelland, S.-J. & Allison, P. A.
Ecological niche modelling does not support climatically-driven dinosaur diversity decline before the Cretaceous/Paleogene mass extinction
Nature Communications, 2019, 10, 1091

Dunhill, A. M.
Problems with using rock outcrop area as a paleontological sampling proxy: rock outcrop and exposure area compared with coastal proximity, topography, land use, and lithology
Paleobiology, 2012, 38, 126-143

Dunhill, A. M.; Hannisdal, B. & Benton, M. J.
Disentangling rock record bias and common-cause from redundancy in the British fossil record
Nature Communications, 2014, 5, 4818

Mitchell, J. S.; Etienne, R. S. & Rabosky, D. L.
Inferring diversification rate variation from phylogenies with fossils
Systematic Biology, 2019, 68, 1-18

Tennant, J. P.; Mannion, P. D. & Upchurch, P.
Sea level regulated tetrapod diversity dynamics through the Jurassic/Cretaceous interval
Nature Communications, 2016, 7, 12737

Walker, F. M.; Dunhill, A. M.; Woods, M. A.; Newell, A. J. & Benton, M. J.
Assessing sampling of the fossil record in a geographically and stratigraphically constrained dataset: the Chalk Group of Hampshire, southern UK
Journal of the Geological Society, 2017, 174, 509-521



On 05/12/2019 18:10, David Marjanovic wrote:
See the "early" in the URL? If you have access, go to the non-early site https://www.pnas.org/content/113/18/5036 and scroll down to the "Materials and Methods" section. There it says at the end:

Extrinsic Factors.

Because the fossil record has long been known to be incomplete (50, 51), it is possible that the observed slowdown and downturn are byproducts of undersampling. This assumption would imply that there is a systematic downward bias in the phylogeny toward recent times, which would be counter to the usual expectation for poor sampling (50, 51). Here, to test the effect of such biases, we fitted additional models with appropriate covariates, including stage-level formation counts (because formation count is widely reported to be associated with sampling bias) (9, 10, 12, 35, 44, 52, 53), taxon-specific formation counts (the number of formations in which a taxon is found), taxon-specific collection count (the number of fossil collections in which a taxon is represented), cladewise valid taxa counts (the known underrepresentation in the phylogeny) (54), fossil quality scores (state of preservation) (55), and body size (smaller taxa are less likely to be preserved) (56).

As an indirect measure of the influence of geography on speciation dynamics, such as segregation by geographic barriers (30), we used Mesozoic eustatic sea-level reconstructions (34) as an additional covariate in our models (mean sea-level value along each terminal branch). We also tested the ecological limit on clade diversification or the possible effects of niche saturation by adding a measure of intraclade diversity taken as the number of contemporary branches (including internal branches) for each taxon (the number of tips in time-sliced trees) (48). All data files are available in Datasets S1âS13.

As far as I can tell, all this assumes that if the quality of preservation is the same in two formations, then they will produce the same number of specimens if all else is equal; not all else is equal, and the corrections for this are listed. What is not listed, as far as I understand, are the area on which each formation is exposed now (as opposed to the area over which it was deposited; that's what the sea level correction is for), and the density of fossils in each formation (apparently higher in the Dinosaur Park than in the Hell Creek, AFAIK).
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On top of all that, the emphasis on actually known fossils (spelled out at the start of the "Materials and Methods" section) means that all conclusions are heavily biased toward North America. If there was a decline there but an increase in Africa, we're simply not going to find out anytime soon.
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Finally, the curves in the figures are awfully smooth for spanning so much time. Why would they be? How would that work?
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(...Also, may I request that people stop saying "speciation" when they mean cladogenesis? There's only one of 150 species concepts under which those are reliably the same thing, and it's never used.)
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Gesendet:ÂMittwoch, 04. Dezember 2019 um 20:59 Uhr
Von:Â"Mailing" <mailinglistinformation@gmail.com>
An:Âdinosaur-l@mymaillists.usc.edu
Betreff:ÂRe: [dinosaur] Would non-avian dinosaur survive through the whole Cenozoic?

There was a slow-down in speciation rates prior to the K-Pg, see:

Sakamoto, M.; Benton, M. J. & Venditti, C.
Dinosaurs in decline tens of millions of years before their final extinction
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2016, 113, 5036-5040
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/04/13/1521478113.abstract